The Confidence to Walk Into Any Room with Emily P Freeman

*This transcript was auto-generated*

Kim Gravel: So this week to start off the show, I've decided to, give Travis, my husband a review like you would on Yelp or QVC and you're like, you're reviewing a piece of clothing and I'm going to give him a review. His rating is a 3. 2 out of 5 because every time I go to use my debit card, I'll be in debt.

Target. I'll be at the grocery store, wherever I'm declined. Now, do you know how embarrassing it is, Zac? When I go up to Publix, Hey, Bruce. Hey, Jane. And I go to use my debit card and it says, ma'am, that has been declined. Do you know how embarrassing it is? So let me, let me tell you why it's been declined.

Zac Miller: Cause it's not like you don't have money. 

Kim Gravel: Correct. Okay, it's because my kids and my husband have access to that account and they go ding dong it 20 here, 20 there out of my car. I'll tell you another reason you're 3. 2 this week. You know, when we go to a restaurant, Zac, we all go as a family and we all have to get water.

We get one communal soda. And we pass it around, so everybody gets a swig, and then he gets free refills. It's quite embarrassing, especially in our community. You know, they know that I'm on QVC, and they know I have a podcast, and all that. And they think, well, this woman is so cheap, she's basically stealing free drinks from free refills for the whole entire family.

Last but not least. Every car I have gotten into this week has been empty. I had filled up three cars. 

Zac Miller: How far is the nearest gas station, Kim? Is it really expensive? Is that the issue? 

Kim Gravel: I don't know. But if I go run my car, it's going to decline. So I'm not going to be able to pay for it anyway. So this week, so this week, Travis gets a 3. He did take the kids to the practices of the games and all that while I was out of town. So I'm gonna give him three and a half, 3. 2 stars for that. But other than that. That's where you're sitting this week, Travis. Alright, and send me your reviews of your spouse or your kids at TheKimGravelShow. com Let me tell you something, I just feel like I've had therapy by doing it.

So, do that. Drop, drop your review in the comments, and I'll read the funniest ones on air in future episodes. Listen, let me tell you, it's the little things, y'all. You have to laugh or you'll get mad. Zac, you have to laugh or you'll get mad. 

Zac Miller: You know what? Husbands are perfect. I'm going to toe this line.

Kim Gravel: Bye! We'll be right back. We'll be right back. 

Kim Gravel: Okay, y'all. I am so excited to talk to Emily P. Freeman, who is on the show today. You're going to absolutely love her. She is the host of the Next Right Thing podcast, which is about creating a space, listen to this, for a really big idea, and this idea is discernment. Yeah, I said it discernment. We're gonna break that down.

She's the best selling author and her new book just dropped last week and it's called How to Walk into a Room and the Art of Knowing When to Stay and When to Walk Away. So, I mean, she is so full of faith and insight, y'all. Her podcast is amazing. This book is amazing. I cannot wait to talk to her. I can't wait for you to hear from her.

Please welcome Emily P. Freeman is walking into the room. She ain't leaving this room, Emily. You ain't leaving this room today, honey.

Emily P. Freeman: I want to take that with me everywhere I go forever. That's my new soundtrack. 

Kim Gravel: Isn't that fabulous? That was so great. Every time Zac produces one of these for my guests, I get cold chills because it's like, don't you, isn't that like, we should be coming into the room like that, right, Emily?

Emily P. Freeman: Right. Oh, every time. Totally. I know. Well, I've seen your show before and I forget y'all do that. And I'm like, what a gift. 

Kim Gravel: I love it. I love it. Oh my gosh, Emily, I love you already. I feel like we are close. I feel like we could be besties. Cybers talked to you a little bit. I just, you're kind of, you're the person, let me just give you a little praise before we break it down because You're the kind of person, you remind me a lot of my BFF, Amy, who is like the steady Eddie, and she's got this calming spirit, and I'm so chaotic, ADHD, high energy, but Emily, you have such a wisdom.

This book, I think, is going to be a game changer for so many people. I really do, because I believe discernment is a spiritual gift, right? And, and I think we all can possess some kind of discernment. But you say everything that you do creates a space for the soul to breathe. And that helps you discern what the next right thing is.

Emily, what do you mean by that? Because my soul needs to breathe, girl. 

Emily P. Freeman: Right. You need to take a deep soul breath. Hello. I think there is, there's what's happening on the outside of us. And we all know, you know, we're having conversations, we're moving through our days, but then there is a whole world happening on the inside.

And I think sometimes we go through life. forgetting about all of the things that we're carrying around with us that people can't see. And so really, I see my work is to help people create space on the inside, declutter on the inside in a certain way, so that there can be space and room for us to make our decisions wisely.

for us to carry what matters the most, because otherwise all of these other kind of distractions or things that are happening just beneath the surface kind of cloud the way and make it difficult for us to engage in the discernment process. 

Kim Gravel: I know for me, Emily, like when, when I was reading your book, I exhaled, do you know what I'm saying?

Does that make sense? Like, I feel like I'm always holding, holding my breath. You know what I mean? And, and this, this thing about the idea of discernment and decision fatigue. Oh, thank you, Lord. I, you know, and I'm very decisive. So I'm very decisive. And, but being able to decide has really changed my life.

It's been a game changer for me. Can you talk about What that means in, in terms of discernment and, and having this decision fatigue and what it does to us on the inside, girl? 

Emily P. Freeman: Well, you know, they say, you know, they, all the smart researchers, all of them, all of them, so they tell us, they, that, Adults make over 35, 000 decisions every day, and it's, I mean, that sounds like you're telling me stories that can't be real.

 But when you think about it, like there are a lot of involuntary decisions that we're just kind of always making sort of knee jerk responses. We might not call them decisions, but that's what they are. And so there's sort of that. on the surface stuff that we're always doing. And those are like the, you know, decision making there are seasons of our lives where we are more consciously aware of the decisions that we're making.

Maybe we're deciding about schooling for our kids or a job or an opportunity. And we're trying to decide what we should do. And then there are times when kind of just beneath the surface of that, we have to enter into what I call process of discernment, where it's not just the daily decisions, like where we go for lunch or, you know, what might we do tomorrow, but it's like, we're having to decide a big life change.

Like are we going to move to a different city or someone's inviting me to this huge opportunity, but it's going to have a lot of repercussions. And so what does it look like then to not just be making decisions on the daily, but also to, make a. Decision that's a larger decision that might actually be a series of smaller decisions.

And there are times in our lives where we have a lot of those and we can get really fatigued. Like this is a real thing where we are like, I am a decisive person normally, but I have this huge decision I'm making on top of all these smaller decisions. And if someone asked me just like, What's for lunch?

I'm going to fall over because like that's one tiny decision too many. 

Kim Gravel: Okay. Where have you been all my life? And can we talk offline after this is over? I'm ditching Amy. Emily's the new BFF. She's out. Poor Amy. Amy can call me too. Amy probably needs you. Poor Amy for not the reasons you think. Being my best friend is poor Amy.

Seriously. 

Zac Miller: I was thinking, I was just thinking about, like, the amount of times for me where I feel like I am too burned out to even decide what to eat for lunch. Right? Like, that, and to me, like, you sort of saying that, it, it, it speaks to me so deeply. 

Emily P. Freeman: And the thing is, because you can feel like a crazy person because you're like, it's, I am a person who knows how to do this.

Like I am a grown up, I'm a boss, like I'm a parent or whatever. Like I can move into the room like making decisions, but it's, that's such a great tell, Zac, when you realize like, oh, What to eat for lunch is actually tiring me out. That's such a great hint to know, like, there's something else at work here.

There's a lot happening beneath the surface that maybe I haven't had the time or space to sort of declutter on the inside so that I have space to not feel wild when it's time for lunch. 

Kim Gravel: How do you get past that? How do you get past the decision fatigue? 

What can we do? 

Emily P. Freeman: Well, let me tell you what, this is what I think is true.

You know how we do like in the springtime, we'll go through our house and like this whole house is driving me nuts and I must clean out every closet and every drawer and it's you know, spring cleaning. We go out and we go through because the reality is we're always collecting things. We're always collecting, you know, things.

Just like we went to target and we've got the one thing, but we also got the 10 things and we're collecting mail or we're collecting keepsakes, but we always we always understand that time in our bodies when we look around our house and we're like, we have to declutter, right? It's just like enough. And so we enter into that process.

Well, I would say that There's this we can do the same thing for our inner life and and I venture to say that silence, solitude and stillness are to our soul as decluttering is to our home. And that's something we can practice. It does not come naturally for all of us. And it's not the default, which is why we have to do it on purpose.

Kim Gravel: You know what, Emily? It is. It is a practice. I'm terrible at it. And I like Zac and I were talking for such a time as this. for your book to come out into the world, because I think the world needs this. I know in particularly women, but men too. But for me personally, I'm going to get emotional a little bit, Emily, because I really needed you today.

I needed you today. Zac is in a chaos place with his life and making decisions. Great moves, right? Great. We're walking out of some rooms and walking into some big rooms, girl. And it's great decisions, but the blessings are so big. God is so good. And he's opening so many doors that I'm just sometimes, Emily, feel like I don't have enough strength or energy to walk in them.

Yeah. What do you do when you're exhausted? 

Emily P. Freeman: I'm so glad you brought that up, Kim, because sometimes the rooms we're entering into are are like, they're rooms we've prayed for. They are rooms we have fought for. Some of us we've, we've, we've, worked really hard for many, many years and dreamed about these rooms.

And then when we get there, we're so tired from the journey that it's difficult to even enjoy the room, at least at first when we get there. And so I do think that One of the ways to walk into a room with confidence is to pay attention and to recognize the rooms we just left. And it might seem counterintuitive, like, well, but that's past that's before me.

But I think part of entering a room in freedom and with some confidence is Being able to release the rooms that we have just experienced in the form of doing this with some reflection of some gratitude practices. I have found when endings come, because the reality is when you're starting something new, you're also ending something.

Right. And sometimes we're so quick to rush to the new that we don't take the time to release the old. And the reality is this new room might not have started. And I have found it to be helpful for me because I mean, to, to, to mark an ending. There's so many times when an ending comes and goes and there's no marking of it.

Yes. And so for me, I have found it to be helpful before entering this new room, whether it's this room I have wanted for so long, or if it's a difficult room that we're getting ready to enter. I found it to be helpful to look at the last room, the last space that I've just left and to name the gifts of that room that I'm going to bring with me.

And then also to name maybe the difficulties or the burdens of that room that I'm going to leave behind. Every room has gifts and burdens. And going through that process with the last room I think helps me enter the new room with, with renewed energy. 

Kim Gravel: Is that why you start the book? you know, how to walk out of a room.

I mean, you start with the ending, right? 

Emily P. Freeman: Yeah, it can be like, wait a minute. She's talking about walking into a room and the first two thirds of the book is about walking out. How does this go? 

Kim Gravel: But honestly, I did too. I thought that was genius. And I will tell you, I mean, let's dive deeper into that because is, is discernment attached to that, Emily?

Emily P. Freeman: I think it is. I think when we have a decision to make, we often are looking for what's my next thing to do. And I'm all about that. I mean, I'm all about doing the next right thing. But I think before we can discern our next right thing, it's really important to look at what was my last right thing. This can be deeply informative for us.

Kim Gravel: We got to pause on that now, Emily. Don't rush through that one. Say that again. Did y'all hear that? Yes. 

Emily P. Freeman: Before moving on to our next right thing, It's important to know and name. What was my last right thing? Oh, 

Zac Miller: I love that. Can I just, that makes me think of, can I just read? I want to read a sentence from, from your book if I can.

So good. Can I just, so you write right, right in the beginning. This is like page 15. When things end our first assumption may be that something went wrong and like I I just I underline just that right and I could go on and on and I won't but I just like it. That's so true to me in so many ways and it's like, you know, we have these just different seasons in our lives and to me not being able to let go properly of something that I liked to have in my life has been really hard and and led to so much heartache.

Emily P. Freeman: Yes. And I think Zac, it's a great point because especially as you're talking about entering a room that you've wanted, but knowing and naming, That, the existence, the mere existence of that room might automatically mean the absence of something else. And being able to, to recognize what has ended, what, because especially like, for example, if you're growing, you're growing into something new, into a new space, but there is sometimes like this blessed sacredness of smallness and of hiddenness and of like something that you feel like you have a little bit of, Maybe not preparedness sounds like a negative, but yeah, like you're ready.

You're like, I know this. 

Kim Gravel: The part of the preparing. It's the little, Oh yes, Emily. 

Yes. 

Emily P. Freeman: But knowing like knowing his kid, that that's over now that's passed and that helped us get where we are, but it's not going to be like that in this new room. And I'm going to have to walk into this new room as a beginner.

And let me tell you what, if there's one thing people don't like. It's being a beginner. We, I'm all about a new beginning. Like, listen, give me the spring flowers. Give me a starting over. Give me a fresh start. Give me a new house. I don't want to clean the toilet. Give me a new one. I'd like a new one please.

I love new, but when that, that's fine when it's out there, but when it becomes something about me that I am showing up as new as a beginner, absolutely not. I don't love it. I don't love it, Kim. I would rather be experienced. I would rather know what's going on. I would rather be in charge and sure of myself.

And so sometimes these rooms we're entering, while they may be great and a gift and all the things, they also come with some, the newness that we might not be as welcoming to. Like I am new here. I don't know the password. I don't know the inside jokes. I don't know the ropes. 

Kim Gravel: And don't have the confidence.

Because we don't know what we don't know. That's right. How do, like, I am a woman of faith. I have walked and had my personal relationship with the Lord for so many years, since I was seven. And there are seasons in my life that I hear him more clearly. I can discern things more clearly and sometimes I cannot.

What can you tell us about what discernment really is? Because don't, that to me, I love how you're talking about the book. It's like in the hallway. Like, you're, you're, you're, you're, discernment. Gets you from place to place, right? Yeah. The knowing. Yeah. How do we get there? 

Emily P. Freeman: I think the simplest way that I have found to describe what discernment feels like is it's not so much I'm entering into a discernment process to find an answer, but we're more looking for answers.

arrows. And what I mean by that, I'll, I'll use an example. If I was going to, I live in North Carolina. If I was going to leave my house in North Carolina and go to Montana, I can't leave my little town and see an, a street sign that says, this way to Montana, right? It's too far away. But what I can do is I.

I can see, I can get on I 40 and I can see this way to Winston Salem, this way to Asheville. And I'll follow the road signs along the way. Now eventually, if I get on the right roads, I'm going to end up in Montana, but I can't know that from North Carolina because it's just too far away. And I think that's often how discernment feels.

It's instead of sort of having a question and then we get an answer, instead we have a question and then we might pray. We might talk to people who know and love us deeply, who understand who we are and what we most value. We might think about what we deeply want. And that's something, by the way, that I think a lot of us are afraid to tap into is desire.

 But I think that's a really important part of discernment because here's a, here's my own little rabbit trail. What you want is what you want, whether or not you admit it, and it will inform your next right thing. It will inform your decision making, but the question is, do you want it to inform it with your eyes open or with your eyes closed?

So tapping into desire is saying my eyes are open. I am aware of what I want, but I, but the difference is, and this is why we are afraid to admit what we want because we confuse it with demanding what we want. But admitting and confessing what I want is like an open hand, but demanding what I want is a closed hand.

And so I would say part of discernment is knowing and naming what we want, but not demanding it go that way. And so that's another arrow we can follow is what is it that I want? But am I open to, to God and to spirit if I don't actually get that thing?

Kim Gravel: But this is the thing, Emily, why do you think people are afraid to express?

and move from what they want. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's like, don't you think it's like, and Zac, help me out here. Don't you think the world is like, it's like an oxymoron. We tell everybody go for what you want, do this and that, but at the same time we feel guilty or feel like we can't. say what we truly want.

I thought that was brilliant when you said that, because I feel the same way. And it's like, it took me many years to get to the place where like, dadgummit, that's what I want and I'm going for it. Yeah. You know, and God will lead me if he wants me to have, you know what I'm saying? Like I trust I put my faith in him and I trust the discernment to follow those arrows, like you said.

But why do you think Especially women, Emily, especially women, have a hard time saying, I want this. 

Emily P. Freeman: I don't think we've had a lot of good models. I think it depends on our family of origin, and especially, I would say, people who have grown up in church. A lot of us have been taught that what we want, and I don't know that we've been taught it directly.

I think we've picked it up along the way. We picked it up. That, if I want it, then it must not be right. If I want it, it must not be what God wants. And we somehow think it's selfish to be able to name what we want. But I think that's because we have conflated knowing and naming what I want with demanding what I want.

I love them together. Like it's all one thing. 

Kim Gravel: What is demanding? What is, what is, What is wanting what I want, you know, soul? And then what is domain? Tell me what you mean by that. 

Emily P. Freeman: So let's say, I think sometimes it's helpful to hang your hat on an actual example. So I'm going to try to think of do it, do it, think about, maybe there is an opportunity that you've been given like, like, for me, you know, I'm an author.

Sometimes I get invited to speak. Let's say there was an opportunity, an invitation to speak at something that like sounds really fun and really exciting and like a, it would be really in alignment with what I think I'm good at doing. So there's a part of me that's like, Ooh, I might want to do that.

But then there's this other part of me that's like, but if I do that, then I'm going to be, you know, I have to consider my family. I'm going to consider like, I'm going to be gone from home and then my husband's going to pick up the slack and all of these things. Right. And so there's this like. pole, which is very natural, normal.

I mean, this is a natural, normal things. There's this pole of like, Oh, but You know, maybe I shouldn't want to go. Maybe that's bad that I want to go because maybe I'm being selfish. Right. And I think that I think a normal, natural human thing is to get an invitation to think about whether or not you want it to talk to your people, to look at your calendar, to consider all of the things you need to consider, and then to make a choice, right?

I don't think it has to have a morality or a identity thing attached to it, but I think that's what we do. And so instead of like, kind of taking it at, like, this is just a neutral thing. Like, do I want to do it? Do, have I thought it through? Have I talked to my people? Does it fit with our schedule? Yes or no.

 Instead of that, I think sometimes we get our identity all conflated up in it and we start to think like, well, if I was a good mom, I wouldn't leave my house. I mean, this is, you know, extreme example, but I think sometimes those are in the back of our minds. And it depends on like, what our own moms did as we were growing up, what our friends do, what we think about ourselves, and all of those things can get kind of muddy the water.

And so I think that idea of like, you know, saying what I want doesn't feel like enough. And, and of course, sometimes it's not, sometimes we need to have other points of data. But what I, Find more often is that people don't use what they want as a point of data at all. We don't consider it at all but what I have found in my own walk with God is that oftentimes that Because I've been given a new heart and because I believe God lives in me Oftentimes what I want is what God wants like they kind of go together and I I think I have found over time that the beautiful thing about walking in faith is that You I think God's a lot less interested in the very details of like, right or wrong or this way or that way than he is on us just trusting him as we go along the way and knowing that no matter what thing I choose, God's going to go with me.

And I can trust that and know that. And even if I stumble along the way and kind of make a move that like, Oh, that could have gone differently. Thoughts with me there, too, and we can redirect. 

Kim Gravel: He is, he is in the business of redirecting and it's not plan B or C. It's not plan B or C. Okay, we got to take a quick break, but when we come back, I want you to make the decision y'all listening to keep on listening because I've got more with Emily P. Freeman after this short break. Ah, discernment, walking in rooms, walking out of rooms. I mean, she said, given a new heart, y'all. Come back.

This is the thing about you, Emily. Okay, I'm gonna tell you right now, like I need more of people like you in my life because there's a calm to you. There is a presence to you. Truly, God has gifted you with this message and I can feel like you've lived it. It sounds like you're speaking from actual experience of walking out of rooms, being able to listen and discern as you're walking into a new How do you walk into this new room as a leader and as a listener?

Emily P. Freeman: Something I have learned along the way, and again, I don't share it because I do it great, just because I've done it a lot. 

Sometimes it's just repetition, right? It's not so much perfection. I learned this and I've learned this a lot along the way, but one of the times I can point to where I've learned this most profoundly was I went to grad school as an adult.

I went back to school, was not in the plan, did not plan it, but there I was. But I found myself in this full of, like, People who I could have very quickly been intimidated by, you know, this academic setting and talking about spiritual formation and lots of pastors and leaders in the room. And, you know, I was one of the students and I remember thinking, though, the importance that I mean, it was almost like I remember specifically the moment of realizing, like, I'm not in charge in this room.

I'm this is not my room. Like I'm not the one in charge, but I can still be a leader, even though I'm not in charge. And as a student, that sort of occurred to me as something, you know, it's not, it's not a new thought. It's not my own thought. That's, you know, it's, but it was, it occurred to me in a new way that here I am as a student showing up in this room, this physical, true classroom.

And all these other people here are showing up here as well as themselves. But none of us have showed up here. Like we mentioned before. with a blank slate. Like we're all bringing like our stories into this room, are all of our narratives. And this story has already been hap this story of me has already been happening for all these years, same goes with them.

And so I can't depend on the person in charge to lead me well if I'm not leading myself well. Right. And so that's like the first time I remember really articulating like, oh, I'm This, this school, yes, I'm learning things about, about theology. I'm learning things about spirituality, but I'm actually learning how to walk into a room as myself, rather than as a counterfeit version of somebody else, rather than trying to live my life in a way that I think someone else thinks I ought to be, but actually.

Sitting down on the inside, no matter what's happening on the outside and recognizing that with my friend, Jesus, that I can show up in this space as my whole self and, and actually I must leading myself first, even if I'm not the one in charge here. 

Kim Gravel: And there you go. There's the podcast. Put a pin in it.

I'm just kidding. But that, that is my whole message to Emily is walking in. You're calling your purpose, but I like what you said. As you're. As who you are, your authentic self, so many people and me included, because I know, because I'm sitting sometimes when I'm talking to people, I'm like, this, this ain't me.

I'm being vague. This ain't really me. Yep. You know, I think we recognize that internally. We're set. Okay. And so, but when, because so many people will say to me, Like, why did this go well for you? Or how did this offer? And I thought, well, I don't know, cause I'm just a little rickrack paddywhack. But I truly believe it's that being who you are, who he created you.

Because that's the superpower, right? Him, he's a superpower. But that is your personal superpower, is that authentic self. What gives us I don't know. What gives you, Emily, that kind of confidence and that leadership to be your own leader and be yourself? 

Emily P. Freeman: It's such an excellent question, and I'm here to confess to you, I've spent a lot of my life outsourcing my confidence.

Kim Gravel: Woo! 

And, 

Zac Miller: She's gone. She's gone. It's over. That's just such a huge idea. I mean, this is, this is such a huge. 

Kim Gravel: You can't, you got, you can't run through these ideas. Emily, you're coming up with an idea every two seconds. You got to slow down now. We'll slow down. We'll slow down. I'm from the South.

You're from the South too, girl. You're in North Carolina. I'm from Georgia. We're a little bit slower. 

Emily P. Freeman: Right. You're a little bit more South. 

Kim Gravel: I'm a little bit more South. Right. I mean, I'm a Scot from Alabama, honey. We there. Okay. And you know, when you get to Florida, it's all over. Say that again. 

Emily P. Freeman: You asked about confidence.

Like, how are you showing up with confidence and leading yourself? And I'm, and I, and I will say that I have spent a lot of my life outsourcing my own confidence. And to unpack that a little bit, I'll say, And probably a lot of people can relate with this, right? This, this idea of sitting at a table where like a true physical table, not a metaphorical table where there are many voices around the table and your instinct, my instinct has been over time to trust everyone else's voice and idea.

long before I'll trust my own. Come on, girl. And what I have been in the process of over the last several years, I mean, 10 years, maybe, but especially the last four or five is learning to tap into my own home on the inside, the home I bring with me wherever I go, because guess what, who are we going to be with for the rest of our lives?

ourselves. This girl right here, I'm going to walk into every room with me. So I may as well get comfortable and I may as well begin to listen to what she has to say. Come on. And how can I do, how can I expect other people to listen to what I have to say if I'm not even willing to listen? to do that for myself.

And again, this comes back to knowing what we want. It's that same space in us that doubts and distrusts our own desire is the space that doubts and distrusts our own voice. It comes from the same place. Same place. And so learning to sitting around a table to, to truly like honor my own voice at the table, not above other people's, not to the exclusion of other people's, but to honor my voice too.

Zac Miller: So how much of this idea, right, that you're, you're there and you're sort of outsourcing and you're not being able to be authentic is because you're just in the wrong room. And how much is it like sort of the. You know, I'm thinking of that as like the outside work of like putting yourself in the right place versus the inside work of like, you know, working on yourself, working on your confidence, working on, you know, all those other things and your faith and that, you know, how much of it is one versus the other?

Is that sort of the wrong way to think about it? 

Emily P. Freeman: Oh, I don't think that's the wrong way at all. I think that what you just said right there is an excellent, practice of what I call pointing and calling. And this is a practice that comes from, so the Japanese railway system is the safest and best in the world.

And it's because of their safety practice called pointing and calling. And in that, it's very, Elementary almost like they, they, a train comes into the station and they point to the train and they say, train has arrived and they'll look at the time and they point to the time and they say the time out loud, 835 a. m. And, and this is like, like one, this is not a thing, but it is a thing evidently because they have reduced workplace errors by 85%. Wow. They're the safest in the world this and it's because of this practice in the same way we can do this for the rooms of our lives, the various rooms and when I say rooms now I'm speaking metaphorically could be physically but the rooms, the commitments, the relationships that the parts of life that we're a part of the places where we both feel like we belong or places where we feel like maybe we don't, we can do a practice of pointing and calling by asking a series of questions.

Some of those questions include, is this a room that shows me or did I choose it? Who is in this room right now? Who is here? Who has already left this room and who is entering? But another question you asked, Zac, is Can I be myself in this room? To what extent can I be myself in this room? And if people who knew me the best showed up in this room and observed me, what would would they recognize me?

Or would they have some questions? And I think this alone isn't necessarily a determiner to say you're in the wrong room, but it's a great marker. It's a great practice of pointing at that and saying, okay, this is a room that I chose. This is a room that I feel pretty comfortable in. However, I'm recognizing increasingly.

That I am not able to be myself here, and this is something to pay attention to. It's not a final statement, it's not a final decision, but it can be an arrow of whether or not this is the room for me.

Kim Gravel: The last section of your book is when you're talking about walk into the room as your own friend. Yeah. And can I just tell you, you can't pour from an empty cup. I know that first hand because I have tried and tried and tried and tried. And is that what you're talking about there? What are you talking about when you say walk into the room as your own friend?

Emily P. Freeman: I think it starts with, honoring our own voice at the table. Okay. I think it continues with, what poet and theologian Padraic Otuma says, we might know more than we know we know. Come with it. Honoring the reality that, you know, I might actually know more than I know I know. And maybe I can trust that as I move forward, as if I would trust a friend, as if, as if Kim, you would trust Amy.

You know, you wouldn't constantly doubt Amy's voice. 

Kim Gravel: Now Emily too. We're gonna bring her in. We're gonna bring you in too. 

Emily P. Freeman: But it is, it's like, wow, I, I, I doubt myself, but I don't doubt my best friend or my, my partner. Like, you know, Not, not to the, not to the degree that I often doubt myself. And so I think, I think that's how it begins is, is that trust relationship with yourself, which might sound a little woo woo, like what does that even look like?

But I think it starts with honoring your voice at the table. Yeah. I mean, and then, and then continuing on to, to offering yourself compassion in those times when you're not showing up like yourself. Like there've been plenty of times, even in this process of like, learning more about myself and changing my mind on some things just as you grow and change naturally in life is, you know, I'll be in a situation where maybe I hear something said that I'm like, Ooh, that's offensive to someone.

And I should probably defend that person. But this is a, this is new territory for me. And maybe I'm learning how to show up as my full self. There was a time when, you know, if I weren't to. speak up or speak into that. I might feel a lot of shame about that. I still might like, I say, I believe this thing, but then I didn't speak up to defend that person when they were hurt.

But I think there's a process that we're all in, right? That we have to learn to like, okay, I noticed that and I didn't speak up then maybe next time I will. And I can offer myself the compassion and the grace to be a learning person. And I think that's what it also means. to be your own friend. 

Kim Gravel: And like, don't like, because we wouldn't beat our friends up if they, if they made a mistake or didn't do exactly.

Yeah. I love that. I think that is just, I mean, there's so many things that you say in the book and, and that you've said today that I just, you could have a whole podcast in books around just those little ideas. There's one thing I want to ask you though, because I know you have a weekly newsreader and it's called Soul Minimalist.

What in the world does that mean? 

Emily P. Freeman: I'm so glad you asked it, because it really goes back, we're bringing it back around like Seinfeld, all the way back, it comes all the way back to the beginning, to this idea of decluttering on the inside, and really we know what minimalism is, minimalism is letting go of what you don't need so that what you do need has more impact.

So the things that you have, they mean more, right? Well, we understand that on, you know, the physical level of our homes are minimalist. We get what that means, but when you bring in soul to it, what does it look like then to get rid of what I don't need on the inside, on the soul level, so that the things that I value the most can have more impact.

So the things that I care about the most can actually determine and have impact on my decisions that I'm making because we walk around all the time, like we said before, with so much input. And the question becomes, where's the output? There's no natural output. We have to work on that output. And, and to me, that is entering a practice of, of stillness, like real, like five minutes of stillness, like with a timer, I do that of, of silence where it's just like, I'm going to sit in this room Without an agenda and without a screen and just be a person for a few minutes, and solitude, which raising my hand, that was the most difficult for me, not that I don't like to be alone.

I do. I actually like being alone, but I don't like being alone without like, without something else that I'm doing, right? Like alone in a room by myself without my phone or without something to watch or without something to read. Like, that's uncomfortable for me. So this idea of like not being observed or not depending on someone else, that, that's a more of a challenge.

And I would say probably everyone, when it comes to solitude, stillness and silence, there's probably one of those that we're drawn to. And there's probably one of those that we are repelled by. And so it's interesting to kind of think about what those might be. 

Kim Gravel: Should we be doing what we're repelled by?

Because a lot of times I fight like tooth and nail, knowing what I should do and do not do it. Okay. Wasn't that Paul? That was Paul. I know the things I should do. Why do I do the things I shouldn't do? It's just, it's, it's, this is such a, it's a topic. Of course, that's universal and everybody relates to, but I think in particularly now, you know, the stillness in the, in the meditation practice and faith and prayer and just being quiet because it's such a distracting world and it's hard, Emily.

It really is hard. Life is so fast and it's so, like you said, there's so much input, but not a lot of output. How can we As believers, as people of faith, as people who are desperate, you know, to be authentic in a really unauthentic world. Where can we start, Emily? I mean, I know that's a big, big idea question here, but I really, I really I think people want to know where to even 

begin.

Emily P. Freeman: I think my best word for that, Kim, is beginning with knowing that we are loved and that God does not have an agenda for us in the way that we might imagine. That no matter what we choose to do or how busy we are, that we are deeply and profoundly beloved. That there is nothing that we could do that would take us out of the sacred and kind love of God.

the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And I think when we begin there, anything that comes after that, is a whole lot kinder. 

Kim Gravel: All right. Your voice is like, I'm going to get, download the book on audio because if, are you reading it? I do, yes. Yeah, if somebody else is reading it, I ain't getting it. But if you're reading it, I'm going to get it.

No, Emily, I, y'all have got to go get this book, how to walk into a room, the art of knowing when to stay. And when to walk away by Emily P. Freeman. Okay, Emily, you can't leave us yet because, we do something with every single guest. You gotta come back. Please come back. Pray about coming back. Cause I got more questions for you, but For right now, I don't want to keep you cause I could talk with you for three hours.

We do something every, with every guest called the rapid fire questions. Now look, I say this every time and everyone's like, okay, sure. And I say, I'm going to ask you a question. First thing comes up, comes out. And they're like, yeah, but they always get stumped and they just don't But I believe you, Emily.

Okay. Come on out with it. Okay. First thing comes up. All right. Here we go. Rapid fire questions. What is one skill you wish you had? 

Emily P. Freeman: I wish I could dance. 

Kim Gravel: Oh, you can't dance. 

Emily P. Freeman: I mean, I can bebop, but I want to be like on so you think you can dance like that's the kind of dancing I want to do. Well, it's too late for me, but I mean, you asked first thing that came out, Kim. 

Kim Gravel: What kind of dance would you do?

Like, what's your favorite kind of music? What kind of stuff? 

Emily P. Freeman: Oh gosh, let me tell you what. Okay. I mean, speaking in so you think you can dance language, I mean, when they do like those lyrical like partner dances, and it's like, like, I remember two of them danced to Ingrid Michelson's Turn to Stone. I can't remember which two dancers it was years ago.

It was magical. And I mean, it's just so like, it's like, it's basically like poetry, but but expressing with your body. It's beautiful. I mean, I also watch, I mean, those, dancers who do like impromptu swing and they just like their partners. You see these on Instagram a lot where they're like partners and they just play a song and they know how to like, they just make stuff up.

It's kind of like swing dancing. 

Kim Gravel: Love it. I've been watching that on social media. I was just going to say to you, my body hadn't been able to express itself in a long time to dance. So I'm aged out there. Okay. If you could, if you could put one thing in a time capsule, what would it be? 

Emily P. Freeman:  I think I would put a time capsule to be opened when?

Kim Gravel: 20 years from now. No, a hundred years from now. A hundred years? A hundred years, let's do it. 

Emily P. Freeman: Well, maybe it would be, it'd probably be my iPhone. 

Kim Gravel: I know, right? Are you obsessed with yours like I am? 

Emily P. Freeman: Because it would be such, it would be such a relic, like to look at a hundred years from now, like, remember when we thought this was newfangled and it'll be so antiquated.

Kim Gravel: Girl, did you grow up in the 80s, Emily? 

Emily P. Freeman: Yeah. 

Kim Gravel: Okay. So did you remember the cell, do you remember the cell phones that you would carry it around and it was like a big ol The cell phones? Right. Right. Right. Right. this. Hello. Hello. 

Zac Miller: You know, you mentioned those big cell phones on a recent episode and I tried to find like a really good clip of someone using one of those cell phones.

Could not find it. Like they're so old. There isn't even stock footage. There's no evidence. 

Kim Gravel: Yeah. There's no evidence of those. But I remember, I remember when microwaves came out people. I remember Yeah. Okay. What can go down that path? Okay. This is a good one. Emily. It's gonna make you think if you were a professional wrestler, what would your name be?

Emily P. Freeman: Penelope French. 

Kim Gravel: That came so fast. I'm curious. How did that happen? 

Emily P. Freeman: Okay. I'll start with my middle name is Patrice with a P. Okay. I have a friend who tried to guess one time what my middle name was because I knew it started with a P and he guessed Penelope. Okay. Well, that's not it, but it's stuck. So he teases and every time he sees me, he calls me Emily Penelope.

And so when you said that, I'm like, well, Penelope comes out and then French is just like a, it's like a one, it has to be a one syllable, something. Cause if it's like a Penelope, that's long. So then you need like a quick something. And that's just what came out. I can't help it. I can't explain 

Kim Gravel: it. It's a classy wrestler name.

I could see it. I see your costume now as you're saying it. I can see it. Very classy. 

Emily P. Freeman: Maybe some feathers are in there somewhere. 

Kim Gravel: Oh. Okay, now that's going down a whole nother road. Here we go. What is the last thing you Googled? Oh Lord. Oh, no. Look it up. What'd you do? Let's see. History. 

Emily P. Freeman: Okay. It was what happened with the primary election.

Yeah. That's what she looked up. There you go. Because we had our primaries. 

Kim Gravel: I looked up, funny basketball clips to send to my son. 

Emily P. Freeman: That's so much more fun. 

Kim Gravel: I'm just telling you, I don't know what I would do without Google. I mean, that is, but that's the new encyclopedia. That's people don't understand that.

Remember when we had the encyclopedias, Emily, I used to smell them. I used to love how they smell. Okay. Oh yeah. I'm not a weirdo then. Okay. Maybe I am. Y'all are too. Okay, here we go. Not because of that. No, right, right. We all are. Let's be honest. What future invention are you most looking forward to? 

Emily P. Freeman: Oh, well, I think, I'm looking forward to when we can blink and arrive somewhere.

Kim Gravel: Me too. I was gonna say the same thing. Like, what is that called? 

Zac Miller: Like teleportation. 

Kim Gravel: Teleportation. Yeah. 

Zac Miller: Like Star Trek. Yeah. 

Emily P. Freeman: I'm, I'm here for that invention. Whoever's got that in mind. 

Kim Gravel: I am so here for that right now. Yeah. And I would, like, in, in, in the interim, I would take hover, like, vehicles that could just, like, in the air.

Okay. Okay. 

Emily P. Freeman: Don't they kind of have those a little bit, a little bit. 

Kim Gravel: They've got them on the ocean, on the water. You know those people that doing that, that, that they fly, but they never seem stable. So I'm gonna look to get some really, really good. No. 

Zac Miller: You need to jetpack him. I think that would be. 

Kim Gravel: Can you imagine me jetpacking?

I would kill myself. Here we go. I mean, I would hit a wall. I

Zac Miller: could. I mean, it would be hilarious. 

Kim Gravel: I can barely drive on the ground. Much less in the air. Okay. What is your biggest pet peeve? Emily? 

Emily P. Freeman: Okay. This one's weird. No. Okay. We're just going to have to go with it, and you're going to just have to trust me.

I do not like spoons. And hear me out. I will use a spoon for ice cream, or cereal, or soup. But don't be bringing me a spoon at a restaurant. for a piece of cake or pie. Don't be doing it. I can't, I can't do it, Kim. 

Kim Gravel: Wait a minute. What about a spork? What about a spork? 

Emily P. Freeman: He's got, he's got a spoon. Now a spork, the only time I'll eat, I'll use a spork is at Kentucky fried chicken with the mashed potatoes because they're the ones, because that's my childhood.

Other than that, unacceptable. Give me a fork. So I'll have to ask them like, hello, you're bringing dessert. Don't take my fork away or bring me a clean one, but don't be trying to serve me cake with a spoon. Absolutely not. 

Kim Gravel: Okay. Let me just tell you, I'm leaving here now and going to get a two piece all white with a coleslaw and a mashed potatoes and a fried chicken right there.

Emily P. Freeman: And a spork. 

Kim Gravel: No joke! And I'm getting my spork and I'm dedicating it to you. Okay, here we go. What's one thing that baffles you about men? Lord have mercy, honey. That's a whole other podcast, Emily. It's me and you. 

Emily P. Freeman: Right. Well, I can't, I don't know that I can, I don't know that I can speak for all men because I don't know all men.

I only know the men who live in my house, which is my husband and my son. I got a husband, I got a son. And I'll tell you what, It boggles my mind. Okay. How heavy their footfall is. Like why you gotta be stomping around? Do they flush? Why you can't be just taking, why? Why can't you just take a step?

Like a normal human person? Yeah. It's like John, and I'll walk around the block and it's like boom, boom, boom, boom. And I'm like, listen to my, and I'll say it like, listen to how I walk . And then, and then we listen to how he walks. But then I guess there's part of me that's like, I mean, do I want him like light footed around?

Yeah, maybe I don't. Maybe that's not what I really want, but it is so loud in here. So loud. 

Kim Gravel: Girl, I live with four, three men, two husbands. Do they flush? 

Emily P. Freeman: I mean, so this is a podcast. Let's see. Will they hear this? Will they watch this? 

Kim Gravel: Be real, Emily. Be authentic. 

Emily P. Freeman: It depends on the day. 

Good days and bad days. 

Kim Gravel: See? Sorry. That's. Okay, here we go. Do you believe AI is good or bad? 

Emily P. Freeman: Oh, good or bad? What a binary. Okay, so AI kind of freaks me out. I'm not gonna lie. 

Kim Gravel: In a good way or a bad way? 

Emily P. Freeman: In, in a, in a, in not a good way, my dear. Got it. I just, it's just, it's a little too something. I don't know what.

Kim Gravel: It's a little too invasive, maybe? 

Emily P. Freeman: Yeah, and like as a writer too, there's a whole, I don't know. Yeah. You know, so yeah, it's a little, it's a little concerning. I would say bad, but then again, you know, would I have said that about Google however many years ago? Probably. 

Kim Gravel: I think my parents did. 

I mean, I can't tell you. My mom used to say, that's the devil. I mean, I mean, she, I can't. Right. What did she say the other day? I got so tickled. I said something, you know, I can't remember what it was, she goes, that's just nothing but the devil. I mean, I've heard that. I remember when I bought the Prince Purple Rain soundtrack.

She, you know, which was edgy. That's edgy. Totally. Yeah. Okay. And she said, that's the devil. Okay. Speaking of, what song will you always sing when it comes on? 

Emily P. Freeman: Oh, this is tough, Kim. It's good. I should have had a cheat sheet. 

Kim Gravel: No, it's good ones. You're good. You're the best rapid fire we've ever had.

Emily P. Freeman: I know what song it is.

It's this song whenever it comes on. It's The Spin Doctors Two Princes. 

Kim Gravel: Ooh. Ah! Good one! 

Emily P. Freeman: One, two, princess who adore you, just go ahead now. You know it. You know it. I can't not sing it. 

Kim Gravel: That is a great song. 

Emily P. Freeman: It's just a good voice too. It doesn't matter where I am. 

Kim Gravel: Yeah.

That's the one. Which movie could you watch unlimited sequels of? 

Emily P. Freeman: Oh, The Wizard of Oz. My favorite movie of all time. Keep it going. Forever. 

Kim Gravel: I liked Lord of the Rings. I could have had that one go on and on and on. 

Zac Miller: Oh, Kim, it did go on and on. What do you mean? It went on and on. 

Emily P. Freeman: You got your wish.

Zac Miller: I was just, that movie, I was just talking to someone about how Lord of the Rings had like 27 endings. 27 endings? I've watched it. I've got the extended version. They kept wrapping those storylines up, Kim. They were just going on. Thirty five minutes later, it ended 17 times. 

Kim Gravel: Four hours and seventy five minutes later.

Okay, here we go. Alright, Emily, what is your favorite junk food? 

Emily P. Freeman: Oh, that's a good one. 

Okay, so I'm going to, this is a little bit harkening back to my childhood. Okay, go. I mean, listen, I don't know if I would say it now, but I think growing up like the ultimate, the ultimate favorite junk food was the little Debbie, the Swiss cake rolls.

Do you remember those? And they have the chocolate on the outside and the white cream in the middle and the cream and they're rolled. 

Kim Gravel: Yeah. You don't buy those now. 

Emily P. Freeman: I can't I'd eat them all. I can't do it.

Kim Gravel: Well, I've got some at the house. You can have some. Come on over. 

Zac Miller: That's the point, Emily. You gotta eat them all.

Emily P. Freeman: You're gonna have those after your, after your Kentucky Fried Chicken lunch. 

Kim Gravel: If you don't think I'm going to Kentucky Fried Chicken, y'all crazy. I'm leaving right here and going through the drive thru. Okay, here we go. Who is your, that's a good one. What about a salty snack? What about your salty junk food?

So that's your sweet. 

Emily P. Freeman: Salty right now is chips and salsa all day and all night. 

Kim Gravel: Okay, no Cheetos, no Funjins, none of those? Okay, chips and salsa is a, I would call that a health food though. It's healthy, right? 

Emily P. Freeman: Yeah, it's very healthy. That's what I'm saying. 

Kim Gravel: It's tomatoes. Okay, here we go. It's fruit. I mean, vegetables.

It's fruit and vegetables. Who is your celebrity crush? Now this one, Emily, I have a lot of faith in you on this. You've got to really hone in and make it count. 

Emily P. Freeman: Okay, I'm ready. I'm ready for this. Oh, I'm ready right now, because I think about this a lot.

This, now listen, this is gonna surprise you.

You're not ready. 

Kim Gravel: I'm, okay, I'm, I'm, I'm ready.

Emily P. Freeman: Because it's kind of quirky and weird. 

Kim Gravel: No, go for it. Go for it. We're ready. 

Emily P. Freeman: It's Jimmy Fallon. 

I told you. I love that. He's just so funny. It's so happy. 

Kim Gravel: Absolutely no joke. He is. He's funny. He's hilarious. 

Zac Miller: Do you watch him every night? Do you watch Fallon?

Emily P. Freeman: Not every night, but he's such a great, he'd be such a great guy to have around, 

Kim Gravel: I think. I think you have great taste. I think he's, he's kind, he's funny. 

Emily P. Freeman: Wait, are y'all going to answer this question or is it just me? 

Kim Gravel: Emily, I was thinking like Brad Pitt. I'm thinking hot Hollywood. 

Emily P. Freeman: Okay, sure. Fine. Okay. But I mean, you're thinking like.

Zac Miller: In a pinch, Brad Pitt, I guess. Whatever. 

Emily P. Freeman: Yeah. Right. But I mean. You know, but then there's also like Taylor Swift. I mean, we can go the whole gamut. Like, you know, it's like, 

Kim Gravel: I can, I can be a Swifty on a warm day with the windows rolled down for sure. Right. I'm really into Keanu Reeves right now.

I'm really having a Keanu Reeves phase. 

Emily P. Freeman: Interesting. What has inspired that moment for you? 

Kim Gravel: My, my sons and husband don't flush or don't bathe a lot. And I think he doesn't either. So I think it's just a, I mean, it's familiarity. You're into it.

Okay, one last question. What room are you walking into next, Emily? 

Emily P. Freeman: Okay. All right. I'm going to tell you in a couple of months, I'm going to walk into a room of rest. I take a little time off and kick it on back and actually have a summer where I'm not working my tail off. So I'm really looking forward to that room.

I'm not there yet, but I'll get there soon. Take me with you. 

Kim Gravel: All right, Emily P. Freeman's book is called How to Walk into a Room, The Art of Knowing When to Stay and When to Walk Away. Y'all, it's available right now everywhere books are sold. Her podcast is called The Next Right Thing. I'm telling you, go wherever podcast, you listen to your podcast, download that, subscribe to it right now.

It's called The Next Right Thing. Follow her on Instagram at Emily P. Freeman. And I got to tell you, Emily. I feel like we're going to be close, girl. We cannot not stay in touch. Please. I love it. What a gift. No, I'm serious, girl. You are exactly what we need right now in this world. Your voice, your message.

 You've blessed my heart. I don't know. You've blessed Zac too. We love you, girl. Thank you. Come back. Come back. 

Emily P. Freeman: Ya'll are a delight. I will. 

Kim Gravel: Come back. 

Zac Miller: Thank you so much, Emily. This was great. 

Kim Gravel: We love you, girl. Bye, Emily. Next up, I've got a listener voicemail from a woman named Jeanette, and we've got outtakes and dancing during the credits.

So you don't want to miss any of that.

Okay. This week we have a voicemail from Jeanette, who I just wanted to give a little extra encouragement to. Take a listen. 

Listener Voicemail: Hi Kim. I just love to watch you on QVC. I think you're so funny and I think my husband does too. And one day I said, hey Kim it's not gonna be on today. He said, well crap. Anyway, I just love you and your clothes and everything. Wish you the best. Hope you're doing okay. Prayers foryou. And I love Amy, too. You both uh, girls have just really, lost weight. I mean, I've been watching you all along. So, it's a big incentive to get started. So, love you all. Bye bye. 

Kim Gravel: Okay, Jeanette is I love you, girl. Jeanette and your hubby. He has got good taste in women all the way around.

And Thank you for the prayers. I'm telling you, I'm healing. My Bell's palsy is going away, getting better every day. And girl, I want to encourage you, the weight loss has been, it's changed my life. It has changed my life. So I am rooting for you, girl, and, and uh, standing in the gap for you on that. And look, if you want to hear your voicemail on the show, or you just want to call us and, and let us know what you got going on, give us a call at 404 913 6460.

And, Zac. We'll, we'll get them on the show. We're gonna listen. 

Zac Miller: We listen to all your voicemails. We pick the ones that are the best, the funniest. I want funny voicemails. Can you start leaving us funny voicemails? Tell us what your husbands think of the show. That would be great. 

Kim Gravel: Can you believe your husband said, well, crap.

Well crap, . That's it. Just love that the man's got taste and listen. Thank you for listening. If you like this episode, then share it with somebody. Let somebody know and help us grow this community of women who are loving who we are, right where we're at. Alright, till next time, I'm Kim. 

Zac Miller: I'm Zac.

Kim Gravel: And we love ya.

The Kim Gravel Show is produced and edited by Zac Miller at Uncommon Audio. Our associate producer is Kathleen Grant, the Brunette Exec. Production help from Emily Bredin and Sara Noto. Our cover art is designed by Sanaz Huber at Memarian Creative, and Mike Kligerman edits the show.

Talent booking by Central Talent Booking. And a special thanks to the team at QVC. Head over to kimgravelshow.com and sign up for our mailing list. Again, we can't do this without you. So thank you for listening and we love you.