Discover the POWER of Spirituality for Mental Health with Dr. Lisa Miller

*This transcript was auto-generated*

Introduction:

This is The Kim Gravel Show. 

Dr. Lisa Miller:
I can't wait to talk with you about spirituality because you feel to me like a very bright spiritual person.

Kim:

Without my faith, I don't know that I could get through it.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

When we practice our spiritual life, we literally strengthen our brain.

Kim:

Dang, this rapid fire is getting really deep.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

We're actually not in control.

Kim:

Oh. Bye. Bye.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Oh, Kim, this is why people love you. So you speak right from the soul.

Kim:

This is my heart's desire, is for people to connect with God in a real way because it will change your life. He's changed my life. Hey, y'all. Kim Gravel here, and welcome to the Kim Gravel Show. You need to prepare yourself for this week. I mean, prepare yourself physically, mentally, emotionally, to be inspired. Because my guest today has been researching the connection, y'all, between spirituality and mental health, and her findings are going to change your life. She is the founder of the Spirituality Mind Body Institute, the first Ivy League graduate program focused on spirituality and psychology, y'all.

Kim:

She's a New York Times bestselling author, a clinical psychologist, and an award winning researcher. She is a professor at Columbia University, and her new book is incredible. And it's called the Awakened Brain. I'm so excited to dive into it. Let's welcome Dr. Lisa Miller. Dr. Lisa, we spare no expense.

Kim:

We bring you in with a chorus.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

I love it. I love it. I feel so welcomed, and you make everyone feel so welcomed. Kim, I love your show and I absolutely can wait to talk with you about spirituality because you feel to me like a very bright spiritual person.

Kim:

Oh, I am a person of faith. I say, from my rooter to my tutor. I mean, it's deep. It runs deep. It runs generationally deep, too. And so with that said, I want to just jump right in. I love the story in the introduction of your book. Okay, where you.

Kim:

Now everybody listen. We're talking about spirituality. So you know, this is one of my favorite topics on the planet. In the beginning of the book, you're reviewing some MRI images with some of your colleagues, and the data that you found was shocking. Can you tell everybody you gotta go get the book, but can you give everybody a little nugget about what that story's about?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

The bottom line is that MRI studies showed us it was the first time anyone had looked at it in the field of psychology or psychiatry. But MRI studies take pictures of the brain showed us that when we practice our spiritual life, and for many people, that is in their faith tradition, whether they are Christian or Hindu or Catholic or Jewish, or when we practice Our spiritual life, we literally strengthen our brain. So the bottom line, Kim, is that when we live out our spiritual life, we literally strengthen our brain. Every one of us, every single person, is born with an inborn capacity for spiritual life. Just like we're physical or emotional beings, we're born spiritual beings. We know that through hard science. There are genes associated with our natural spirituality. There are circuits in the brain associated with natural spiritual awareness.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

But this inborn capacity to feel God's presence, whatever one's word may be, My word is God. This inborn capacity to be in a relationship with our higher power, this is our birthright. But it is only one third inborn. It is two thirds cultivated, practiced, built in the same way that we strengthen a muscle. What our MRI studies showed us was that when we strengthen our spiritual life, when we pray, when we serve, when we reflect on sacred understanding, there's scripture fellowship. We literally strengthen our natural spiritual awareness. We strengthen our spiritual brain. I call it the awakened brain.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Higher power.

Kim:

Oh, my gosh. I love that. Okay, so. Okay, okay, hold on. I know, I know, I know, I know. We got to get there. We got it. Because I think you've got something you want to take us through, like an exercise.

Kim:

But I want to ask you this because I've always said, you know, talking about God and being. I'm a strong person of faith and spirituality, and it exists whether we believe in it or not. Right. Like, the science backs that, right?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Yes. Yes.

Kim:

Okay.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

You have all built this way. Absolutely.

Kim:

Okay. You've got to talk about that, because I think we spend a lot of time arguing, like, about religion and about, you know, there's conflict all around us and. But we are all built, like you said, molded, created, crafted with this same God void or spirituality void. Right. That we're trying to fill. Is that true?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

From the instant we're born. In fact, I would say before that we are built to be in a relationship with God. I mean, people use different words. My words, God. But we are all built. We're literally the core of our brain. Written into our genes is the capacity and actually the necessity to be in a relationship with God. We're not built to be a little human in a box all by ourselves.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

We're an open system built to be in an ongoing, lived, dynamic relationship with God.

Kim:

You write about how spirituality is genetic. I've never in my life heard it talked about that way. I will say I feel like my propensity for spirituality in my faith in my. Has been passed down from generation to generation like but you're saying it's a little bit more nature than even nurture at this point.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

So, Kim, you know, you're right and you're right on both sides.

Kim:

No, wait a minute. No, let's just take a pause, take a beat. Because Dr. Lisa said I'm right and I'm right. Can I get that on record so I can play that for my kids and my husband every day?

Zac:

Yeah, we should, we should end the episode here. It's all downhill from here.

Kim:

I got cold shells and I was just confirmed by God that that is the truth. Dr. Lisa, that is 100% real truth. Okay. Anyway, go ahead.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

You were right on both sides. So on the one hand, every little baby's born with the inborn porthole through which to connect with God. You could say you can see the circuits in our brain. It's written in our genes that a very young child you'll see spontaneously talking to God. We are built with the porthole to God. And when we look at studies, we realize that that porthole is in every single one of us, but that we must cultivate that gift. And through the lens of what science calls a twin study, you can determine whether any human capacity is inborn or environmentally formed. What we find is that yes, spirituality is inborn, but it's one third inborn.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

It's 2/3 cultivated, developed, nourished, nurtured by our parents and grandparents. And for many people, 2/3 of Americans say that my natural spiritual life is nurtured, it is nourished through my faith tradition. Two thirds of Americans say that my spiritual life goes hand in hand with being Christian or Jewish or Hindu, whatever their tradition may be. And that it's through that intersection of natural spiritual awareness with the family's embrace of the faith tradition that for 2/3 of Americans, the spiritual heart is built. Now, there are people who say I'm spiritual but not religious. About one third of Americans say that. And whether or not we're religious, we're all spiritual, every one of us.

Kim:

I mean, there's a difference between the two. I mean, they can coincide, right? But there's a difference between the two. Can you describe that a little bit for us people watching?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

So, Kim, through the twin study, you know, once again, twins raised together, twins raised apart.

Kim:

My husband's a twin.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Oh, beautiful. Then he's like, we need him here.

Kim:

They're both crazy, both of them. My brother in law and my husband. So it is genetic.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Well, that's actually just the point. You can determine the extent to which something's inborn and the extent. Extent to which it's environmentally formed. So religion, our beautiful sacred texts, our ceremonies, our faith communities, these are gifts of our parents and grandparents. These could. I could choose a faith tradition and immerse myself. It is a gift through the lens of a twin study. It is an environmentally transmitted gift.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Religion is environmentally transmitted. And it wraps around. It's a warm embrace to cultivate natural spiritual capacity. So when we say, okay, spirituality is 1/3 innate, 2/3 environmentally formed. Religion is a very powerful way to cultivate our natural porthole, to connect to God. Religion teaches prayers to our children. I remember as a child learning to pray by the side of my grandma. And when I now talk to God, I talk through the very same prayer that was passed from my grandmother to my mother to me.

Kim:

Wow, that makes. That's a soft place to land. Okay, I know, I know. You talk about the awakened brain for people who might be listening to this, who is spiritually curious. There's a lot of people out there. I get that a lot because I've been a woman of faith for a long time, and I've always had that connection to God. And I can't live without it like it is my lifeline. It is.

Kim:

It is my. Dr. Lisa. It is. It is my worldview. It's how I see others. It's how I see trauma. It's how it's very.

Kim:

The perspective is different from some of the people that I've talked to about this. People who are spiritually curious, how do they awaken their brain? Are there any practices, Are there any ways to do that if you're not been nurtured? You know, growing up with this spiritual. But you've got the void. You feel it.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

So, Kim, I would say the curiosity itself is spirit working through you. Being spiritually curious means that you're already underway, that my word is already calling you. And as a scientist, I would say your innate spiritual hunger is already aflight.

Kim:

Come on. Oh, Lord. Now you preach it. I feel like I'm in church. Hallelujah. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Curiosity is divine. And it's also, you know, body, mind, and soul hardwired in us. There's a deep natural hunger for spiritual connection. And the nagging of the head matches this hunger of the heart. So may I share a practice that whether one's religious or not religious, spiritual, or curious, it's for everybody. It's in the language of life.

Kim:

Yes.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

I invite you to close your eyes, take five breaths, and clear out your inner space. Just open up and clear out peacefully, your inner space, with your eyes closed. And here in your inner chamber, I invite you to set before you a table. This is your table. And to your table, you may invite anyone, living or deceased, who truly has your best interest in mind. Anyone, living or deceased, who truly has your best interest in mind. And with them all sitting there, ask them if they love you. And now you may invite your higher self, the part of you that is so much more than anything you might have done or not done, anything that you might have or not have, your true, eternal, higher self, and ask you if you love you.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

And now, finally, you may invite your higher power, God, whatever your understanding is, and ask if they love you. And now with all of those people sitting here right now, what do they need to show you now? What do they need to tell you now? What do they need to share with you right now? When you're ready, I invite you back.

Kim:

Okay? I'm. Thank you and good night. I am so at peace. No, that. That's right. I feel. No, but can I just say that it feels so comfortable. Life is hard, you know, but God is good.

Kim:

And then I say people are crazy, but it's the truth. Life is hard and God is good. But I will tell you that without my faith and without that spirituality part of my life, I don't know that I could get through it. I mean, I think I'd be a wreck. I think I would be depressed. And anxiety is through the roof in children and teens. I mean, is this the answer, Dr. Lisa?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

I mean, this is not a matter of my opinion or the next person's opinions. Is a factual, scientific answer that when we strengthen our spiritual awareness, when we strengthen our connection to God, our higher power, we are less depressed, we are less addicted. We're at far decreased risk for the epidemic of our time, which is, tragically, suicide. We have a way through suffering. It's not that the hailstorm isn't going to hit. It's that there's an entirely different road through despair and loss, betrayal, pain. It all unfolds differently when we're in a relationship to God, our higher power. It just is an entirely different life.

Kim:

Why do we fight it?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

You know, I'll step back a little and say, you know, why is it that it works? Right? Well, the answer to why it works is spiritual, right? But our way in is, in large part a choice. You know, we can be fortunate to have had parents or grandparents who help us along, teach us to pray, talk about God's presence in their own life, right? But the weigh in is a choice. And we've got to own that choice. And where we can ignore it or fight it, or at times, even a very spiritual person can at times, you know, be a little bit impish or down on our game or naughty and step to the side, you know, and because we've got to own that choice, that we are built, yes, to be in relationship with God, but to build, built to have to own and choose and take responsibility for this. The greatest source, really, it is the core of our whole being.

Kim:

Do you see a growth in spirituality even through your research? Do you see people embracing it more than ever.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

So, Kim, you know, at the level of just the individual, when we suffer, we have the opportunity of our lifetime to awaken all the more to God. We are built in our brain so that suffering is a knock at the door to awakening.

Kim:

Lord have mercy. Suffering is a knock at the door.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

To the awakening that is built into our brain.

Kim:

That is huge. Because just recently I just. I was talking to my mom about this. I. And of course, when you watch the news and you rent social media, I mean, there's just all the trauma, anxiety, depression, drug abuse, financial hardship, I mean, that's all you hear about. But you're saying we can be at least comforted and free from it through the spirituality practice?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Yes. And made more, not less, by it.

Kim:

Come on. I think stuff is you a preacher?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Well, like you said, there's a lot of trauma right now, but the data is very clear that we are built for post traumatic spiritual growth. And when we look at how we do that, there's four components. It's accessing that experience, putting it in words. And I mean that very experience, right? Often sharing it in a group and then handing it over to God or higher power, shining the light of spiritual awareness. And suddenly I saw we both could be forgiven. And then I knew God had been with me all along. And then I saw we both were not to blame. There's a deeper understanding that speaks to a wiser, more resonant part of ourselves that is a spiritual breakthrough and is the ground for post traumatic spiritual growth.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

So that process is not about just repeating the memory or telling it to someone. It's invoking God onto that very memory, onto that very experience.

Kim:

Because he's got it. He can handle it. He created us so he knows. I mean, okay, okay. I could talk about this for an eternity. Okay.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

All this means is that we are loved and held. We are guided and we are never alone. Loved, held, guided, and never alone. And Our brain, our awakened brain is built to be able to perceive this truth. So, you know, we talk oftentimes when people suffer and they're in recovery about handing it over to the higher.

Kim:

Let it go, let it go.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

So, Kim, we were built to hand it over from the day we were born.

Kim:

Come on.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

This is literally our nature to live in a dialogue, to live in an ongoing, dynamic, open relationship with God.

Kim:

So why do we hang on to it? Are we control freaks? I mean, like, why do we hang on to it? So why is letting go the easiest thing or handing it over to God the easiest thing to do, but at the same time the hardest thing to do?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

So, Kim, you get to this point, that's really the heartbeat of our journey, which is, this is a choice, right?

Kim:

This is a choice. Yeah, Right.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

And, you know, it's not an easy choice always because, you know, I've noticed in life, mine and those people with whom I've worked, clients, patients, but all people that, you know, the tough stuff we get in life is often just the tough stuff for us to super evolve. It doesn't mean we deserve it. It doesn't mean it should be. It means it is just the thing for us to super evolve. So it's a little harder perhaps to tangle through it. Because I've noticed, okay, I'm 50 now. I'm in my 50s. And what I've noticed when I hit 50 is that all my friends now at the bridge to midlife, who feared more than anything else that they wouldn't have money, lose their money, and all my friends who feared more than anything else about disloyal, faced adultery, sort of like our biggest fear comes home to roost.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

And I wonder if, as much we don't say, why is this happening to me? But why is this happening for me? What is it that I might move through where I can love so much more deeply? What God are you asking of me now? What life are you revealing to me now? How can I be, you know, have really what you might call an ego death, shed all that illusion of control? I'm only as good as what I've got or what I've done or how can I really get down to the heart of being a soul on earth?

Kim:

Okay, I have to be selfish for a hot minute. Everybody just bear with me because I've. I've been going through something like the last two years. And I hope I don't get emotional, but I will, because I've worked my whole life to have this level of success that I I really felt like it was a deep desire. And as a woman of faith, you know, I constantly gave it over to the Lord God, and he blessed and blessed and blessed and blessed. And I'm at a place, Dr. Lisa, where I am exhausted. Okay? I'm tapped out spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically, and.

Kim:

But he keeps blessing and he keeps blessing and he keeps blessing and he keeps growing and he keeps building. And I'm thinking, how am I going to do all of this? But I know it's his call on my life. Okay. That's why you're here today. I mean, this is. This is my heart's desire, is for people to connect with God in a real way because it will change your life. He's changed my life. Okay.

Kim:

How do as women, because I'm in my 50s as well. We're so pressured and we're so. We're so everything to everybody. How do you tell us? How would you instruct us, Dr. Lisa? And I read my Bible. I pray, I do it, but it gets hard. So how does it go? When you're desperate for doing his will and you're exhausted, what do you do spiritually to renew?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Oh, Kim, this is why people love you. So you speak right from the soul. You share your heart. Thank you. Thank you. It is an honor. It is an honor to be part of your journey and share this moment here. Well, as you know, even how we get there is part of handing it over.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

So your words, but mine are loving God, please guide me that I might do your will. My words are love God. Please work through me that I see God is in and through all life. So that I, like all life, might be you might see you.

Kim:

Yes.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

And might act you.

Kim:

Yes.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

But how to get there is loved and held. You know this. You are loved and held. And it is a lot. It is a lot and a lot of people. The more you give, the more hungry people are around you, and the more you offer, the more they ask. But it's all you are. The wellspring, as you know, is through you.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

And this is how we're built.

Kim:

So it is how God intended us. To serve, to love and to awaken. Really?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Yes. Yes. And so now there's a Bridge at 50 where there's a new, even greater awakening. It's a reawakening.

Kim:

Okay?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

So as we cross the bridge, men and women, all of us, we. The more spiritually oriented we are, the more we ever more expanded. And that can feel at times like a real struggle. There can be.

Kim:

It's a Stretch.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Yeah. Yeah. And there can even be a dark night of the soul. Okay. There can even be an existential struggle. You know, how much do you ask of me? Or am I really on my spiritual path? Have I lived out my deep spiritual values? What's my spiritual footprint? How authentic am I? Even though I thought I was so authentic, and I was, maybe now the bar's even higher, you know, so this sense of the more spiritually engaged we are as we expand at midlife and cross this bridge, it's really an ascension.

Kim:

Is it? Because we are closer to the end? Like, what is the magic? Is what's. What's the. Because you're right. You're right. It's like when you hit 50, you just. I guess you just realize this is it. Because, like, my parents are in their 70s, and I've seen them become new people in the weirdest kind of magical way. It's like nothing matters to them anymore except what really matters.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Oh, Kim, I love it. Because that's the third bridge. There's three bridges.

Kim:

Okay, tell us all the bridges. Go back to the bridges. Lisa. Dr. Lisa, get us to the bridges. Take us to the number one. We missed number one. I'm about to have emotional.

Kim:

I'm spiritually awakened right now.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Well, you are spiritually awakened, as are your parents and as are your children. So the science really is just holding up a mirror to what you've lived and breathed. So science is very clear that an inborn capacity, our spiritual capacity, this porthole through which we connect to God because it's inborn, it has developmental phases. So remember when your children were babies? Remember when they turned 2? Do you want the apple or do you want the banana? And one day they say no.

Kim:

And they've said no ever since. Okay?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Or your junior year, you go home after high school, you're gonna work at a summer camp, skip ice cream, your lifeguard. You come back, and everyone has grown 4 inches over the summer. That was a growth spurt before senior year. There are growth spurts spiritually as there are physically. In fact, every time you see a major physical change, there is tracking a major inner spiritual growth spurt, too. So your kids, right? Late high school, going off to college, emerging adulthood, start to look very different. Shoot up, look more adult. They are growing spiritually inside.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

And every tradition says that we have, you know, confirmation barmbat mitzvah, the traditional inipia sweat lodge with physical coming of age. Puberty is spiritual emergence. What is the presence of God in my life? What is the deep Nature of God.

Kim:

What is it about?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Yeah, yeah, about the second bridge is at midlife. And suddenly, again, whether we see it coming or not, there's an expansion. And I can tell you the day, literally within two weeks of hitting midlife, I started needing reading glasses.

Kim:

Me too. Me too.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

And started looking inward more. There's a process where. And in fact, even the more spiritually engaged we've been, there's an expansion once again. And this time, you know, have I walked my spiritual values? Am I ever closer to God? Sometimes there can even be a feeling of distance, that with this expanded hunger and capacity, there's more to fill. So this happens at midlife. And it often, again, just like when we were teenagers, comes with a struggle, an existential struggle. How am I really living my life? What kind of parent am I? What about the people who work for me? You know, this deep examination on spiritual terms. If I died tomorrow, would I feel that I'd lived out God's will for me? You know, this.

Kim:

The big questions.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Huge. And at midlife. But see, midlife is treated far too superficially. Midlife has talked about in terms of Ferraris and am I promoted enough and big enough at my company. It is talked about externally, which is far too shallow because really what's going on is this profound hunger for ultimate connection to God and to live that out lovingly towards those around us.

Kim:

Well, and to me, you know, I just, I can only speak from my. I'm not a doctor and I don't. I can only speak from my personal experience. It's like you really start thinking, what matter? What is really what. What is life all about? Like, is it really about collecting and buying things and achieving goals and, you know, climbing the ladder? Or is it really about this connection you're talking about? So that's that. Bridge two. What about bridge three?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Bridge three. Your beautiful parent.

Kim:

They're in such good places.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Tell me about your parents.

Kim:

They're just, they're just, they've been married for 50 plus years. They're both people of faith. It's like their personalities and their being and who they are as people are at the best they've ever been. Meaning, like they're happy. You know, they go to the doctor 5,000 times a month in the whole nine yards, you know, but it's like their physical body is failing, but their innards, their spiritual is just blossoming, like, awake, like, especially for my children, you know, and this, like, they're so there and present. I'm telling you, they're like, they only Care about what really matters. That's it. Like, money doesn't mean anything to them.

Kim:

And saving and my dad's really cheap. You know, he's always has the first dollar he's ever made. You know, their. Their priorities have just really come into focus.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

And I bet they love their grandchildren.

Kim:

Oh, they can't stand us. It's all about them. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, they love us, but it's like a whole. It's, like, crazy. And like, my mom, every day, God, I'm praying for y'all, like, to everybody, which she's always been that way, but it's almost like it is an even more awareness and awakening in her, in my dad, so.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Exactly. The third bridge is an awakening. And this time you are really a spiritual ambassador. Right? You are the.

Kim:

Woo. A spiritual ambassador. Okay, keep going. I'm soaking it in.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

There is no love in the world like the love of a grandparent for the grandchild. That is a sacred love. That is one in the same with the divine love, because the grandparent is the torchbearer.

Kim:

Come on.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

We don't make the fire. The fire is divine. But we can carry the torch. The grandparent's the torchbearer. And sometimes the torch is passed from grandparent to parent to child, and that is the deepest form of spiritual formation. When we've interviewed hundreds of adolescents and emerging adults, and they say things like this. You know, my grandparents, they listened to me. I'd come home from school, and it was my grandparents.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Grandma would make me a snack, and they'd both sit down. I'd tell them about my day, and they taught me to pray. We'd pray together. And sometimes if people had been mean, we'd pray about that. And sometimes if I had made a mistake, we'd pray about that. But now when I think about God, it's kind of God. And my grandparents all. Yes, one, yes.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Grandparents.

Kim:

They have the time. They have the time. They have the awakening. They have.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

So this has the awakening.

Kim:

They have it. They have. They know they get it. My oldest child is senior, and I love him so much because he has really seen God move in his life in real ways. Like, very tangible. Oh, yes. You know, like really real ways. And he's in some ways very wise beyond his years when it comes to spirituality and his relationship with God.

Kim:

But he's like on a tricycle that's got a wobbly wheel. Can you get this. Can you get this awakening earlier? Does it have to be the third bridge, or could we go on and just skip, you know, get it earlier.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

You are right that we are all born ready and built to awaken. And we can awaken as children. You see, children very often love to pray. Children love to go to church or synagogue. Children love to be with God and they love to talk about God and ask about God. And the more that his parents, we say, yes, we talk about that here. I, as your mom, your dad, I'm going to tell you a story about God in my life today. The child says, oh yes, this is real.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

God's presence is real. Mom, dad and I, we talk about this here. There's a language that's learned just, I mean, we spend so much time saying, apple, banana, tow truck, teach the language of God. And then the fourth thing is that's so very important is the child can sit by your side as you pray out loud and even help join you and finish a prayer. And so altogether that says we can always reconnect to God. This is how we as parents are torchbearers for our children. And the child, as you're saying, Kim, right here, the 5 year old, the 15 year old can awaken. Life is a constant awakening, a constant reawakening.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

But what changes is how as we mature, the grandparents, an ambassador. But the 15 year old is having a spiritual quest, figuring out who am I as a soul on earth and what is my duty or possibility to serve God. And so the journey has different seasons, but in every moment we are deepening and awakening and reawakening.

Kim:

Can you break down awakened awareness like versus normal awareness? Because, okay, how do we know once we've gotten there, like, what is the difference between the two?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

And you know, when I falter, when I, when I maybe am not in alignment, that doesn't mean that I'm bad or off the spiritual path. You know, that could be on the spiritual path and at a phase of need to deepen or reconnect. So no one's ever banished, missed it, missed it.

Kim:

Right, right. No one's ever like, Right, got it.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Yeah. You're always welcomed, you're always on the spiritual path. And the struggles and the pain is not to discount you and say, no, you're not on the spiritual path. It's part of the spiritual path.

Kim:

Right.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

So you're in, everyone's in. So. But your point is very important because our society, you know, writ large isn't always very helpful. Right, right, exactly. And so in the awakened brain, I map out that there's two forms of awareness and one we are spoon fed 247 in our mainstream culture, which is achieving awareness. Achieving awareness is how do I compare with the Joneses? What have I earned? What have I built? What have I not earned? What have I not built? And the thinking behind that. So, and some of this thinking is helpful. Strategy, planning, research, you know, tactical thinking.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

We need these things to get in the car and go to the grocery store and pay the rent. I've got to be responsible and strategic and planful. But that form of achieving awareness alone will never fill.

Kim:

Nope.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

The bucket never fill the deep existential, what I would say, the sacred yearning, the hole in the heart. Never. And it actually is insufficient even to make good traction and be outwardly successful in life. It is insufficient because that is a very limited. That's a tiny little fraction. That's like a splintered piece of reality. It's based on a very toxic assumption of radical control. If I don't have it, what did I do wrong? Why did he say that to me? What could I have done differently if I wasn't promoted, what did I do wrong? Actually, you know, we are actually not in control.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

We have little control. Like maybe 2%. Yeah, we got maybe.

Kim:

I mean. And the older I get, the less I can. The less I know I have less. I don't have any control. Like, and then I say this all the time. I know I'm so wise because I know I don't know anything. Like, it's beautiful. It's true.

Kim:

Like the older I get, I'm like, I don't know nothing. I know nothing.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Well, that's right. Because what I think I want and what I think is I wanted. I want him or her to date me. I want that apartment. That's all based on today's information backwards, but.

Kim:

Woo. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

But when we awaken, we receive guidance that is high pixel guidance leading us to information that's yet to unfold.

Kim:

Okay, wait a minute. You can't just rush over that. Okay, Dr. Lisa, you got to get. I'm country. I'm from the set. It takes me a minute to pick up. I pick up.

Kim:

But I got to process my processor slower.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

I think you picked that one up immediately.

Kim:

Okay, restate what you said before, what you just said last. Because I'm still blown away way by that.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

When I want something so bad, I gotta marry that guy. Why doesn't he like me? I've liked him for years. I want this job. I have this plan for myself. Those are all historical thoughts. They're based on everything that's happened in my life from today backwards.

Kim:

Y'all, I want you to stop right there and listen to this. You have just solved a lot of people's heartaches and pains.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

It is an outdated desire because it's based on only my past.

Kim:

Tag on. That's it. We are living from the past instead of looking spiritually towards the future. And what God has coming up next.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

What God has coming up next. Exactly.

Kim:

Dang.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Exactly. Beautiful. What God has coming up next. So beautiful, Kim. So an awakened awareness can feel like a tug at the heart. It can be an intuitive sense that every day here I turn left, but today I'm going right. God told me to go right. It can be a deep knowing in my mind's eye or in my prayer life.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

It can be a mystical experience. It is a deep, deep spiritual knowing. Mystical dream prayer. You know it and you as synchronicity. God, a connection.

Kim:

Connection. I tell you what, Dr. Lisa, is there any. And I know we got to wrap up because I will keep you for four hours if I could. Is there a connect? Do people who have this spiritual awaken? Because it's so bizarre, because I meet some people and I'm just like, oh, okay. Like, I mean, like, we can. Is there a connection? Is that where our true connection lies is in our spiritual awakening?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Yes. When we awaken, when we use our awakened brain, when we look into the deeper nature of life, we realize, like rays from the sun, we are all set forth from God. So we are messengers to one another. Today, God sent you to meek him.

Kim:

Yeah. You to me.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

We are messengers for one another, and we are all working for God. We're part of one beautiful plan, one beautiful symphony.

Kim:

We're all related. We're all related.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

We're all related. And so the question is, what is God asking of me now? What does God want of me now? Well, sure enough, I sit down at the coffee shop and someone pops down next to me. I've never met before. And in the first two minutes, it's clear what God's asking of me now. We are messengers for one another. They say something that has been on my heart, or we can find that we're messengers for one another. When we awaken, we realize that we are loved and held. We are guided, and we are never alone.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

And we show up for one another to be loving, holding, guiding, and never leave anyone alone.

Kim:

Okay, y'all have got to get this book, the Awakened Brain. Zac. Okay, I know Zac is probably, like, losing his mind right?

Zac:

Now, I was going to say I said this before we started. It's a beautifully written book. It's one of the best books I think we've read for the show, because Zac is always.

Kim:

We're always having these kind of spiritual conversations, him and I, and they're there. I think they connect us, y'all. Get the awakened brain by Dr. Lisa Mill. I'm telling you, I'm still. I'm still on the. Looking back in the past and all of that. So I'm gonna have to rewind this and, like, post that on my mirror, because a lot of us are doing that.

Kim:

But before you go, Dr. Lisa, you have to. First of all, you have to come back, because I want to talk about the spirituality journey of our children and our grandchildren.

Zac:

Wait, before you do this, Kim, sorry. I know we're like. But I need to ask a question for me, because this is.

Kim:

Go ahead, Beck. Go ahead. Do it. Do it.

Zac:

Because I feel like. So you're coming at this from, like, a position of. I feel like you're pretty awakened. Like you've walked down this path. You've been very religious your whole life. I haven't been. Right.

Kim:

Okay.

Zac:

And I feel like I definitely relate to all the things that aren't necessarily happening in the awakened brain. Right. And for those people in the audience who are feeling like me, who are looking at Kim and you're like, okay, well, you're already 10 steps down the path, and you're, you know, you're co signing.

Kim:

I'm not though, Zac. But.

Zac:

Yeah, yeah, but, like, what's. Where's the one place to start? Like, if you were gonna tell me, Zac, this is what you do to start? What is my first step down the path?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Zac? May we do one more practice together?

Zac:

If you have time? I think so. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Wonderful. Okay. Wonderful. I invite you to take five breaths, clear out your inner space. I invite you to think of a time where you wanted something so badly. That red door was yours. It was that job, that internship, that school, that promotion, him or her to say yes, that red door was yours. And so you strategized, you planned, you researched.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

A plus, B plus, C, you had that all lined up, and you grabbed that handle of your red door, but it stuck. Stuck. And you can't believe it's stuck, because A plus, B plus, C, you've done everything right. You might kick the door, you might be angry, and time may be depressed because the red door made no sense, but only because it is stuck. You pivot. You pivot 50 you pivot 160 degrees and over there, over there is a wide open yellow door, a shining yellow door. You might have said there aren't yellow doors. You've not heard of yellow doors.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

But on the other side of the yellow door is someone who makes you feel alive, is a job that's more right for you, is a mentor who sees something in you that you didn't even know was in yourself. That yellow door was not what you had wanted. It was better and better, better for you. And as you sit back now and you think of the stuck red door and the hairpin turn that brought you to the wide open yellow door, was there anyone there at that hairpin turn? You may have met them for two minutes on the bus or at the coffee shop. It could have been someone who for the first time told you a story you'd known for years. A parent, a grandparent, a trail angel pointing you to that wide open yellow door. And now you sit way back, stuck red door, hairpin turned trail angel, trail angel, and wide open yellow door that has everything to do with who you are and where you are today. How really are the most important parts of our lives found? Is it narrowly through planning and strategy? Sure, we've got to do our part, but are the most important parts of lives actually found in a deep dialogue with the force through life? Is there a presence in us, through us and among us, that guides us? And now, finally, sitting way back, stuck red door, hairpin turned trail angel, and wide open yellow door, where in your road of life is your higher power? God, the universe? The force is your higher power in the wide open yellow door.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

And the stuck red door is the presence of life, the force of life in the trail angel, a messenger, and in your being, an open system in a dynamic relationship with the deeper presence in life. Have you been on a spiritual path all along?

Kim:

Come on, come on, Zac. Haven't we been talking about this? Zac, you and I, as friends as doing this show? I'm telling you, she just said it.

Zac:

Yeah.

Kim:

Dr. Lisa, it sounds so simple, it sounds so easy, and it really, really, really is. It really is too good to be true. Too good to be true. Because he's in every minutia micro, every little cell, everything, right?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Every little cell. And I think Zac's question is so beautiful. What's the way in? When we get that hit in the heart, when there's a deep tug, when there's an intuition, when there's a event that's far too unlikely to have happened by chance, Trail Angel. That's real knowing. That's hard data. And that is God banging at the door for you.

Kim:

Oh, my gosh. And there's data. You're saying, okay, y'all gotta read this book. Cause it's scientific. It's not just like.

Zac:

Yeah, wait. Yeah, okay, go ahead, Zac. What was happening in my brain during that? Just tell me that and then. I'm sorry. I will let you.

Kim:

I love it. Go, Zac, go.

Zac:

What? Love it, Lisa. What was happening in my brain during that?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

So in that moment, Zac, if we invited you into the mri, we'd see three things. We'd see that there was an awareness that you were guided. And that's a shift from a top down dorsal attention network to a big bottom up. The floodlights come on ventral attention network. And people say a new direction. Pops. There's the trail, Angel. The second shift is that we move from feeling maybe alone and cut off and low, to realizing that at every moment, we are loved and held.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

And that is the bonding network coming on. It's the same bonding network that came on when we were children and the arms of our grandparents or parents. Loved and held, guided. And the third component is that the parietal puts in and out hard boundaries, which means we are aware that we are never alone. That that trail, angel, and you are part of one deeper, beautiful reality that you and the force of all life, who I call God, are never. You are never without God. Love him. Guided, never alone.

Kim:

Never. This reminds me of a scripture. All things work together for the good. For those who love him. Is everything working together for our good? Even the bad stuff? If we choose to. Really? If we choose, like you said earlier, to look at it through that lens.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Through the spiritual lens, my view is 100% yes.

Kim:

Yeah, me, too.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

My view is one soul on Earth. And also my view as a scientist. Because no matter how awful things are, they're a gateway to spiritual growth and illumination. Suffering is a bang at the door to awakening.

Kim:

Even all the sucky stuff. Even the sucky. Okay.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

All of it's on the spiritual path. None of it is garbage polluting the spiritual path. It's on the spiritual path.

Kim:

And it's not only. It's scientifically proven.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

It is scientifically proven that we are built through suffering to expand and awaken.

Kim:

Okay, y'all, I don't get the book. I don't want to tell you. Get the awakened brain by Dr. Lisa Miller. I'm telling you, get on the journey. Do it. Make the choice. You know, I'm like a Preacher wrapped in a southern, big old mouth, booty body.

Kim:

I won't get out there and do it. Get this book. Get the book. Start the practice. Get. Get. You know they say woke. No, I say get awakened.

Kim:

Okay. That's the new. That's the new thing to talk about. Okay. Before you leave, Dr. Lisa, we have to do Zac cried. So we need to really go in and wrap up now. I want to do rapid fire questions.

Kim:

So the first thing that comes into your mind, I want it. What comes up comes out. And it's going to sum up. It's going to be ridiculous. So you're going to have to get fun with us too. Okay?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

I like fun rapid fire questions.

Kim:

Okay, here's something good. What does your spirituality look like in your own life?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

I wake up and I go outdoors no matter the season. I live in the northeast and I pray outdoors and thank God for waking into the new day. This gift, like a unwrapped gift of a new day. And I thank God for the sunrise, for night and day and day and night.

Kim:

Come on.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

I thank God for the sun as the sun reflects on the moon. If it's 4am When I woke up. And then I thank God for the air, the earth, the water, and all living beings of the air, earth and water. And having thanked God for our family of life, I then thank God for my little brood, for my children, my parents, my spouse. And then finally I ask that I might serve, that I might hear God in this dialogue of which we've shared. And that today I might be a vessel to serve God in love. And finally, please. Bless you, God.

Kim:

Oh, gosh, Lord, help. Okay, Zac, we do it that tomorrow. We're gonna start it tomorrow. No one's gonna change our life. Okay. What's one simple thing anyone can do in their life to be happier?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

I really think love your enemy. Ooh, Lord.

Kim:

That's your next book. Oh, my God. It's tough, but it works.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Yeah, right? It doesn't mean it has to work perfectly. It's a verb. It's a stance.

Kim:

It's a. It's. But I. It's so. Hashtag truth.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

It's a stance.

Kim:

It's a stance. Dang. This rapid fire is getting really deep. Favorite reality TV show.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Yeah. I have to confess, I like that one where they get to know each other on either sides of the wall. Love is blind.

Kim:

Love is blind.

Zac:

Oh, love is blind.

Kim:

Oh, my gosh. I love it. Okay. You are deep in reality if you know that one. It's a good one. Right. Because you don't. I'm fascinated.

Kim:

I know. Me too.

Zac:

It's like, that's a psychological show, too. It's like, you gotta get. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Yes. I totally agree with you.

Kim:

Oh, my God, that's great. Okay, so Thanksgiving's a couple of weeks after this episode. What's your favorite family dish?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Wow.

Kim:

Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Well, to my kids, every year we have a family joke that I want to cook the original Thanksgiving with cod and earthen grains. And they all scream, mom.

Kim:

I'm going to have to second them on that. Just give me a stuffed turkey.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

That my kids all agree.

Kim:

All right. What's your favorite side dish? You know, like, all the fixings. We call them fixings.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Right. I love kale. So I put kale into everything.

Zac:

Oh, that's a disappointing.

Kim:

You know, I don't even. I was. I was waiting for, like, sweet potato casserole with marshmallows on top or something fun.

Zac:

Do you massage the kale?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

That is a level of culinary sophistication beyond my kids.

Kim:

No, I was totally serious.

Zac:

So we ate kale. So we had a kale salad during dinner, like, literally two nights ago. My kids are 4 and 7, and they loved it. They're eating it up.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

They're going crazy.

Kim:

That's great. That's great.

Zac:

And I'm like, what did you do to this thing? And my wife is like, I massaged the kale. It makes it way less, like, hard to eat.

Kim:

Oh, you know what? We do that with collard greens, too. With turnips.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

I love collard greens.

Kim:

Yeah, collard greens are good. But you have to get them, baby. And you do have to. You have to salt them and rub them out. Yeah, I get it. So that makes sense about kale.

Zac:

You have to salt them and rub them out.

Kim:

Rub em out. That's another podcast. We're moving on. Okay. What would you wear if you could only wear one outfit for the rest of your life? Dr. Lisa?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

I'd have to be the one I'm wearing now.

Kim:

See? Now let me see it.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

It's a simple black dress.

Kim:

Mine would be no bra, just a sweatshirt. And I'm sick of bras. I feel like bras. I'm sick of them. I can't wait till I don't have to wear one.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Well, I'll tell you, I like outfits that can withstand any activity. So I could. Technically.

Kim:

That's a good one.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Running it and go to work.

Kim:

Sleep in it. Yeah, Working in it. Yeah.

Zac:

That's like a New Yorker state of mind. Doctor. That's like, you gotta be ready for anything in the streets of New York City.

Kim:

Right, Zac? That's my new line. That's my new line. You could do anything in this.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Yeah, that's what the simple black dress means to me.

Kim:

Hello.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

No dirt.

Kim:

No dirt. You don't have to wash it. Nothing. Just, like, put it over the. Yeah. All right. Could everyone benefit from going to therapy?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Yes. Provided that the therapy is about your own becoming. I think therapy can be overly backward looking. We've got to know what happened, but, you know, we're not made out of what happened. Come on. Yes. Right. And I remember as a young adult shopping for therapists and getting so anxious and depressed before a session because it felt so awful to be there.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

And then finally I found a therapist who was much more about listening to the whisper of God in my heart. Where was I being guided? What was my prayer, my dream life? The synchronicities, which are the unprobabilistic events that God lays in our path. What were they showing me now? Symbolic living. Life is sacred. And so if it's a therapist, it's about your emergence and about your growth. Great. But pick wisely and feel that you are empowered to go where you feel called. And you're empowered to say, I'm sorry.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Thank you. This isn't right for me.

Kim:

No. Saying no. If everyone in America had to take one class, what do you think it would be called?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Well, the class I'd hope they'd take is Spiritual Awareness in my Life. Spiritual Awakening in my. That your life is great. Holy quest. And it is all about evermore awakening.

Kim:

Yeah, that's why you gotta get the book. Okay. What's the last thing you googled?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Ooh, lovely. Wow. I guess I wanted to be honest. I'll look.

Kim:

I'm curious.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

I'm very into nature. I love nature. I see God's expression in nature. And so I think the last thing I googled was of a. Of an uninhabited island.

Kim:

And if you find it, take me with you.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Thank you.

Kim:

Go visit. I'd love to go to an uninhabited island.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

I'd go on an expedition.

Zac:

Would you do that? Would you go to, like, an uninhabited island and go, oh, I'd love that.

Kim:

Yeah. As long as I had a way to get on and off. If I changed my mind.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Yes. Right. Transportation.

Kim:

I'll work just a way to say, uncle, I'm ready to go. I'm done. Or, you know, stay, whichever. Okay. What. What is the last text message you sent?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

The last text message was to someone I'm collaborating with on a science project.

Kim:

Mine was. Did you take your late project to school, Beau? So, I mean, we're in very, very different worlds right now. Okay.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

I'd say we're very much in the same world, Kim.

Kim:

I know. I feel like I've known you forever.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Yes, I feel that in my heart.

Kim:

All right. What is your favorite music?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

And Zac, you're our brother.

Kim:

You're our brother.

Zac:

Thank you.

Kim:

Who is your celebrity crush?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Oh, okay.

Kim:

Uh huh.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

When I was young, it was. I think it was Scott Baio. I was very Scott Baio's TV show.

Zac:

I know Scott Baio.

Kim:

Chachi. Chachi was your. Oh, Scott Baio back in the day. Remember he had the mullet, Lisa. He had the mullet.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

And then after that, when I got older.

Kim:

That's a good one. That's the best one we've had yet on the show.

Zac:

Amazing.

Kim:

Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

When I got older, when I was, when I was older, it was Morgan Freeman because I thought he had such wisdom and depth and presence.

Kim:

His voice, it just. I mean, he played God. Remember he played God on that movie? Okay, beautifully. What is your favorite junk food? Salty and sweet.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Well, Bugles. Hands down. Bugles. I don't have to think for a moment about that.

Kim:

Epic. Epic. There's something about that little corn bugle that is so good.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

One after the next.

Kim:

They are addictive.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Okay, sweet. It's a tie between coffee ice cream and Chunky Monkey ice cream.

Kim:

Come on. First of all, you're the quickest to answer both of those ever.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

These things.

Kim:

I know. Chunky Monkey and Bugles. Okay, last question. What is, what would you say to one on one to somebody right now that is searching for the awakened brain?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Trust your instinct, honor your curiosity and know that God is actually already there right by your side.

Kim:

Y'all can find Dr. Lisa now until she comes back at her website@lisamillerphd.com she's on Instagram @drlisamiller and on X @lisamillerphd. You have to get her book, the Awakened Brain. It's beautifully written, Dr. Lisa. It's easy to read and it's available everywhere you get your books or audiobooks are sold. Get the audiobook. That's the.

Kim:

You're. Do you read your own audio book, Dr. Lisa?

Dr. Lisa Miller:

So I actually, I. I got horse after about seven pages. So I cast the woman whose voice I thought expressed the joy.

Kim:

I was going to say because your voice is so like. Like butter. Download the book, honey. My voice.

Zac:

I read, I had the audio book. It's the voice.

Kim:

It's lovely.

Zac:

Yeah.

Kim:

Okay. Zac. Approved.

Zac:

Well, sometimes. Sometimes these voices are not good. Like, it really.

Kim:

I know, but, y'all, this is off record, but, like, when I had to read my book, they like, kim, you have to read it. I'm like, I don't think people want to hear me say, hey, y'all, welcome. And he's like. He said the audiobook is going to sell more, you know, so people do, like, distinctive voices, but your voice is, like, so comforting.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Kim, your voice is amazing. I love your voice. Your voice is like. The story of life is rich and it's expressive and it's alive, and it's like. It's like a. It's like a novel.

Kim:

Yeah. I've been road hard and put up wet. So it does come through.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

I love it. Love it.

Kim:

All right.

Zac:

What? I've never heard that expression.

Kim:

Catch up. Oh, my God. That's a Southern expression. Road hard. Put up with. Road hard and put up with.

Zac:

Put up with.

Kim:

Yeah. Do I have to do that? No.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

That means living.

Kim:

Having you've lived hard and you now you're soaking wet from running and living.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

Life with both hands.

Kim:

Or, you know, in the south, they did use it as a little. Somebody was a little frisky or a little too free or they say, as my mom says, she's too fast. I was never that fast. I don't know how we got. Thank you, Dr. Lisa. We love you so much.

Dr. Lisa Miller:

I love you. Thank you. I can't wait to come back. Much love.

Kim:

You have not been road hard and put it wet. You are just smart. She is the founder of the Spirituality Mind Body Institute. Let me say that again. She is the founder of the Spirituality Mind Institute. Say it one more time, it gets my earbuds. Okay, so is there any way just to do it through the. To the thing like this?

Zac:

Yeah, there is. I have to steer. Hold on. I probably.

Kim:

This is always a good sign. And always a good sign.

Zac:

Yeah, exactly.

Kim:

I always know when there's technical issues like this. I call them the little gremlins. Somebody doesn't want this message to get out. 

Kim:

The Kim Gravel show is produced and edited by Zac Miller at Uncommon Audio. Our associate producer is Kathleen Grant from the Brunette Exec. Production help from  Emily Bredin and Sara Noto. Our cover art is designed by Sanaz Huber at Memarian Creative. Our show is edited by Mike Kligerman. Our guest intros are performed by Roxy Reese. Our guest booking is done by Central Talent Booking. And I want to give a special thank you to the entire team at QVC and thanks to you for making this community so strong. Listen, tell somebody about the show and leave us a five star review. And make sure you're following The Kim Gravel Show on your podcast app so we can keep growing this love who you are message together. I can't do this without you. So thank you so much for listening. And y'all, I love you with everything I got.